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RHEL has made a new announcement to control the distribution of its source code.

Discussion in 'CentOS, Redhat & Oracle Linux News' started by rdan, Jun 22, 2023.

  1. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    The Register article Rocky Linux project details how it will live on

    touches on @buik comment that UBI containers don't contain everything needed
    and pay per use cloud RHEL that Rocky Linux intends to use and whether Redhat will close that loophole?

     
  2. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Nope. No longer needed.
    Nothing is going to change. Unless Red Hat manages to successfully conclude a lawsuit against Rocky.
    Citing: obtaining the source and reusing the source in question.
     
  3. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Oracle Linux weighs in https://www.oracle.com/news/announcement/blog/keep-linux-open-and-free-2023-07-10/

    And yes latest automated Centmin Mod EL8/EL9 testing includes Oracle Linux and CentOS Stream just for curiosity :)

    cmm-github-workflow-status-badges-08.png
     
  4. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Haha.. This looks almost like an advertorial :)
    Mentioning AlmaLinux and Rocky Linux as competitors, but not a single word about their own Oracle Linux product as a competitor (probably the most significant). Or that Oracle is actually the originator, of the fact that Red Hat - is shielding its sources (pre IBM). Red Hat has used this tactic ever since EL6. They just limit it, step by step. A little more each time.
     
  5. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah liked that part :)

    Seems SUSE has weighed in too announcing an open fork of RHEL embracing downstreams like Oracle Linux has announced SUSE Preserves Choice in Enterprise Linux by Forking RHEL with a $10+ Million Investment | SUSE

    At SUSE We Make Choice Happen | SUSE Communities

    SUSE Liberty Linux for CentOS/RHEL folks
     
  6. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Nice catch on SUSE Liberty on the free wagon news.
    SUSE Liberty is already available since 2022, on request and on a paid subscription.
    The only thing that seems to be about to change now is that it will apparently become freely available.
    But I can't find a repo yet.

    SUSE's new CEO is ex Red Hat. I suspect SUSE's strategy will be to migrate ex Red Hat customers on their Liberty platform. Eventually as a goal that they move to SUSE Enterprise Linux.
     
  7. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah or all they see value in the RHEL developers/ecosystem?

    AlmaLinux has an update for their plans https://almalinux.org/blog/future-of-almalinux/ and they have decided to not be 1:1 with RHEL unlike Rocky Linux - so will be interesting to see how they both fair
    I'm excited by AlmaLinux no longer being tied and heldback by 1:1 RHEL aims as there's room for them to do their own improvements i.e. own bug fixes and hopefully improvements that aren't found in RHEL :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2023
  8. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    They mainly see the large customers as users, as adding value.
    Oracle, Rocky, Alma, SUSE, they all want them.

    I'm not too excited about it otherwise and wouldn't be too happy about it either, if I were you.
    No longer 1:1 means or could mean extra work to keep Centminmod working properly on all forks. It could just be that AlmaLinux is going to use Oracle Linux sources. Because Oracle is already adding own code. And openly applied to use their sources the other day.
     
  9. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    grafana/grafana.spec at a9 - grafana - AlmaLinux OS Git server

    After quickly evaluating the AlmaLinux source, it looks contrary to what I first thought. AlmaLinux, uses CentOS Stream sources, rather than Oracle. This (if it continues) is not good news in my opinion.
    As we get a kind of CentOS Stream stable or lite.

    In my opinion, there is no reason to use Stream or Stream related beta software on your server.
    Again if this Stream trend continues.
    We will see, the future will tell.
     
  10. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah we will see how that pans out in the future :)

    True, though my excitement about the potential for no longer being 1:1 outweighs my feelings for extra work for Centmin Mod compatibility :) This may change over time. For now, setting up automated package comparison tests to see what I can reveal/test for for AlmaLinux vs Rocky Linux and see about vs Oracle Linux and CentOS Stream too :)

    The automated test is just installing Centmin Mod 130.00beta01 concurrently on AlmaLinux 8 and Rocky Linux 8 and doing respective subtests including creating Nginx vhost, MariaDB databases and test centmin.sh menu option 4 upgrades etc and then finally comparing the installed yum packages and versions and repos for both OSes.

    This automated testing can't test for everything, but helps reduce my testing workload through automation :D

    cmm-github-workflow-compare-almalinux8-rockylinux8-01.png
     
  11. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    You are using Github for this tests?
    Btw as written by me in the CentOS end of life topic.
    I recommend to not use AlmaLinux anymore until further notice.

    As the source above shows, AlmaLinux has recently started using CentOS Stream source code and that is something I, or really anyone should not want on an enterprise server in a production environment.
     
  12. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah, using Github Workflows for automated testing - has already helped to reveal bugs that needed fixing :)

    I'm not concerned with AlmaLinux's direction, or at least will see how it plays out over time. Facebook/Meta also build and use CentOS Stream too for themselves and they seem capable of making it work for themselves. Also, given Centmin Mod betas have always been used in production as well. We still have ~10 months till May 2024 for CentOS 7 EOL.
     
  13. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Let's discuss and move toward AlmaLinux, or any other alternatives to CentOS. In the topic, for which it is intended. Otherwise, it becomes cluttered. Thanks.
     
  14. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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  15. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    I disagree with parts of the content of the article on both Suse' and the AlmaLinux's section.
    There is, of course, a reason that Red Hat software is copied so massively. Simple because it is rock solid and with a support cycle of 10 years as default and up to around 3 year extra with extended support. 13 years you almost don't see back at the competitors.

    Disagree. AlmaLinux added Stream beta code as described above and released an update, very quickly. Is this what they mean by better?
    Hurry and haste is not always good. Case in point. Ubuntu comes out with upstream (often via Debian sources) update's almost the same day. Whereas Red Hat regularly, takes plenty of time and sometimes releases the same update weeks later. This is not without reason. Testing, testing and testing. In most enterprise environments, you are not interested in speed, but stability: Better safe than sorry, principle.

    I didn't find this sentence in the relevant official SUSE article, nor blogpost. But on what basis would the clone of SUSE be better than the original. The original where the creator knows all the ins and outs?

    If the SUSE distribution is already so good, why do they fork the competitor at all?
     
  16. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Interesting take on this from the perspective of end-users in general. The biggest threats to Red Hat’s Linux market share. Which aligns with your reasoning

     
  17. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Another interesting take is whether Redhat's decision will lead to less quality and stable RHEL as they will loose all those developers that no longer contribute into CentOS stream branch? Red Hat's shame is its short-termism and dumping its FOSS ethos

    Guess I can see what @buik means by AlmaLinux's decision to not be 1:1 and maybe use CentOS stream - thereby reducing their access to free open source developers like Redhat would. Or would the community of free open source developers rally around and support AlmaLinux efforts more than Redhat's?

    So in fact the long term stability of AlmaLinux might end up better than Redhat's if open source developers choose to support them more?
     
  18. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    True and here is already a job/generational gap between developers, managers and end customer.
    Make sure it just work and can be deployed as soon as possible. In case of failure, scale up, etc.

    That's why I have very little with Ubuntu and SUSE. They change way too much code, even when the product has been on the market for a while. If it works, it just work. You don't need to adjust anything if it works well.

    Because any new software version update can undo your own software. That's why I welcome Red Hat's backport strategy. Where code is changed only if really necessary. And I don't understand how Ubuntu and SUSE keep changing critical elements. For example, a whole new kernel with every service pack.

    This is partly why I don't understand why most programmers are on Ubuntu. You don't have to have the latest of the latest. It just needs to work.

    Take Node.js with its package manager npm, for example. Trendy which most programmers absolutely love, where all the dependencies are in the cloud, and are not included all in your own software project. Just start a Node.js project from a backup a few years later. Then you will see that many dependencies are no longer downloadable. And there you are with your non-working application.

    In my opinion, it is quite simple. There is no need to create AlmaLinux Stream lite if Stream already exists. AlmaLinux and Rocky have been founded to make a 1:1 RHEL copy because there was a demand for it after the demise of CentOS. AlmaLinux no longer has a use case.

    I do not believe that the developers' contribution to CentOS Stream will decrease. As seen at gitlab.com/redhat, only Red Hat staff members who contribute there on Stream. Nothing will change there.

    Should there be reduced contributions from OSS developers, I think it will be more likely to be seen at Fedora. Where most developers voluntarily package OSS software into Fedora. Supplemented by some Red Hat employees put on the Fedora project (the Fedora team leader, Fedora release manager etc). That same Fedora which is later repackaged by Red Hat (paid) developers into RHEL, via gitlab.com/redhat. Which in fact Stream is either Fedora + or RHEL beta. Just how you phrase it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2023
  19. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah I can see it from both sides and you can see it in how I developed Centmin Mod over time. I like to be able to try the latest and greatest as an optional option and also have the option to use more stable versions depending on the software. So Nginx/Nginx crypto libraries (openssl, boringssl, quictls openssl fork, libressl) and PHP-FPM are predominantly the things Centmin Mod source compiles (with a few others) to have access to the latest and greatest. Meanwhile, MariaDB MySQL needs to have stability so I prefer getting it straight from MariaDB official YUM repos as opposed to CentOS native distrobution provided versions. While in my past pre-Centmin Mod, I've gone as far as building my own optimized MariaDB MySQL RPM packages that performed up to 50% faster than generic built official ones. But MariaDB building wasn't my forte so better to leave it to official MariaDB developers :D

    It just happens that both Nginx and PHP seem to have great testing upstream, so it just works as expected most of the time with Centmin Mod :)
    I get what you're saying, though I lean more to positive view of AlmaLinux's direction. This article from a Percona MySQL employee also leans that way too https://dissociatedpress.net/2023/07/15/almalinux-makes-its-choice-the-friendly-fork/. He draws parallels in how MariaDB and Percona handles diverging from Oracle MySQL for their unique offerings that differentiate themselves from Oracle MySQL. That's how I see AlmaLinux's future :)

    Also https://dissociatedpress.net/category/clone-wars/
     
  20. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Sorry, I don't agree, to a positive view of AlmaLinux's direction to AlamaLinux Stream used source code or friendly fork marketing, "The friendly fork" facy pants.

    Back to the specific database case. Since it is an employee of Percona, who wrote this specific blog and Percona along with MariaDB, completely coincidentally have also renounced their upstream source MySQL. Exactly like AlmaLinux is now relinquishing its upstream source 1:1 RHEL, which is a similar use case.

    You even recommend not going beyond MariaDB 10.3/4 until further notice, because after 10.3, they (Maria) have no 1:1 guaranteed compatibility with MySQL upstream.

    Let me reiterate that I respect everyone (and everyone's choice or decision) and this is not a personal reproach. I just want to point out the AlmaLinux news and or blog post could be or/are colored. Should not believe one on one.

    Like Red Hat employees before and/or around the CentOS EOL current thing (2020-) (Continuous Delivery and Always Ready RHEL), it now seems AlmaLinux employees, or affiliates, are posting excessively positive blogs and comments, entirely coincidentally just after the news that AlmaLinux announced that it no longer guarantees 1:1 compatibility. And the latter especially, should be seen as very positive. Which of course I dispute, them as written the above responses by myself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023