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Discussion in 'System Administration' started by eva2000, Apr 24, 2019.

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  1. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    This thread is for folks to discuss other LEMP/Nginx stacks. Centmin Mod LEMP stack isn't the only one out there and I have dabbled in some for LEMP stack benchmark comparisons before. Created this thread from discussions arisen at https://community.centminmod.com/threads/easyengine-refugee.17024/.

    What other LEMP Stacks have you folks tried before Centmin Mod ? Or what other LEMP stacks you are currently using in conjunction with Centmin Mod ?
     
  2. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    from other thread

    Indeed I was surprised when I saw EE folks announce moving to a Docker based stack. Personally, I don't think the target audience for LEMP stacks is at that level of readiness to go 100% all in and embrace Docker fully. The level of Docker knowledge required isn't there yet for the target audience.

    Centmin Mod has it's own Centmin Mod Docker Development subforum to dabble in Docker to see where Docker can complement Centmin Mod. But never for Docker to fully replace the current setup. Example for nghttp2 docker image for h2load HTTP/2 HTTPS TLS 1.3 benchmark testing etc https://community.centminmod.com/threads/nghttp2-minimal-docker-image.17054/ :)
     
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  3. ririzarry

    ririzarry New Member

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    I was using EasyEngine until they decided to move to Docker based v4. I agree with bassie's comment that adding Docker to a single server implementation is needlessly complicated.

    I've also played around with Webinoly but after trying and using Centmin Mod, it seemed like a step backwards. Centmin Mod is far more complete including Brotli and webp support along with a strong security focus. On top of all this, we have an incredibly active and helpful benefactor who is constantly updating the software.

    Out of curiosity, I'm sure I'll take a look at other stacks but I don't see myself straying from Centmin Mod.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  4. jessuppi

    jessuppi New Member

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    Thanks @eva2000

    Since the main theme here is Centmin Mod and you are "master of benchmarks" I'd welcome/encourage a comparison test with SlickStack if interested. It may not compare the same way that other LEMP stack automation tools do because it includes several WordPress mu-plugins by default but generally, it should.

    On that note: our 50+ WordPress plugins are free on GitHub even if you don't use SlickStack.

    Yes it's the same exact code in production. The only reason it's currently called "Alpha" is for this reason, to force developers to inspect it carefully before use and realize it's still slightly experimental.

    I'm not even sure SlickStack will retain WP-CLI in the long-term, it seems vastly overrated at least in the context of already having a stack management tool like Centmin Mod or SlickStack, etc, with Bash commands.

    Monit is not really critical whatsoever, but it seems nifty to have. I'm not sure we'll retain it either, especially as their project config seems to change drastically between versions, and most cloud networks have basic monitoring alerts these days anyway... well, it would still be a useful addition if its stable.

    Another big note is that SlickStack assumes pairing with CloudFlare... it's a big part of our approach...

    EEv3 was rather stagnant for a few years. I'm assuming that rtCamp moved EEv4 to Docker because internally that was what their company was already using for WordPress clients... it all seemed kinda sudden so who knows, perhaps they will reconsider it in the future when the container obsession calms down.

    Fully agree :) ...after observing the greater WordPress (etc) community for a decade, it's always funny to me when some very advanced enterprise feature gets "picked up" by general web developers on their blog. It's the same thing in online marketing when some mom and pop pizza shop sees a Facebook ad for some pricey CRM or something like that and they think they need it suddenly. Humans are humans... learning to recognize which features and trends are overhyped and momentary is one of the most useful online skills, IMO.

    Also since this thread is not only about SlickStack, I'll say that one of the stranger things for me has been the prolonged life of Memcached object caching in LEMP stacks... is it really that useful in a Redis world?

    Last thought: I've seen rumors that Webinoly was also a fork of EEv3, true or nah...

    And food for Google: VPSSIM and AnsiPress are both stagnant seems, and I've also not tried Trellis before.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  5. bassie

    bassie Well-Known Member

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    Found a post from the founder of Easyengine: Rahul Bansal.
    It is about not adding Varnish to the webstack of Easyengine.

    Varnish is seen as an extra layer to maintain and debug.
    The strange thing is that you can replace the whole story on a few sentences after with Docker.

    'If something goes wrong, we will need to debug Docker also apart from other packages!'

    This makes the choice for Docker by the Easyengine team, even stranger.

    Source: Why we never use Varnish with Nginx!
     
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  6. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah I am pretty sure using Docker in such a way on single server will tank performance too especially when EE are creating separate containers for each major service i.e. mysql for each web site AFAIK.

    I'd like to also highlight Centmin Mod's community forum here with info and activity is also something you folks and I should be proud of building together :)

    I had already canceled my ssdnodes test server which I did previous comparison tests as switching OS i.e. between Ubuntu and CentOS can't be done in their control panel and only done manually by staff so when I switched OSes, they moved me to older slower Intel Xeon E5-2699v4 Broadwell which is still the fastest in that class but not faster than the newer Intel Xeon Scalable Skylake I originally had when I did those Nginx LEMP stack comparison benchmarks. Centmin Mod stack will always have a strong performance/scalability focus as alot of large sites/community forums are powered by Centmin Mod i.e. 10% of largest Xenforo forums (including some Alexa Top 10,000 sites) and many large Invision Board and vBulletin forums also depend on Centmin Mod for it's performance :) Some folks like @gabel are even pushing 1 million unique visitors/day with Cloudflare + Centmin Mod stack !

    I find wp-cli pretty useful it does mean one less thing I have to maintain or think about - it's nice to have someone with more wordpress centric focus and expertise keeping on top of that part :) So I can focus on Centmin Mod developments - project dashboard :)

    Privately, I do use Monit on some of my servers especially when setting up redis server cluster or redis server master/slave/sentinel replication configurations. For CentOS, I build my own custom Monit RPMs so can get the latest Monit versions :)

    Yeah Cloudflare is awesome some of the numbers Centmin Mod users are reporting with Cloudflare in front are amazing https://community.centminmod.com/th...idth-requests-are-served-by-cloudflare.15149/ :) But then again you have to be careful of forcing Cloudflare on folks as there are a segment of users who put on their tin foil hats and think Cloudflare is taking over every aspect of the internet and man in middling connections for not so genuine reasons so avoid at any cost mentality hehe.

    I always assumed their paying clients were running EEv3 as well - so couldn't understand the stagnation as it would of meant paying clients were running outdated and possible insecure/broken EEv3 as well? If EE was fixing these issues for paying clients, then they would already have the updated code which they could make available to EEv3 free users too - not saying all new features but at least security and major version updates i.e. nginx.

    It's why Centmin Mod has menu options 4/5 for nginx and php-fpm recompile/updates, it allows end users to update their nginx and php-fpm versions when they want without any intervention by me - I only develop and maintain the build routines. So end users can always have the latest versions including any automatic nginx and php-fpm patching routines I develop. Example, OpenSSL 1.1.1b has a security fix which hasn't been released by OpenSSL folks, so I auto patch that version with the security fix https://community.centminmod.com/th...19-1543-security-patch-in-123-09beta01.16811/ :)

    Or wget 1.20.3 security release https://community.centminmod.com/threads/wget-1-20-3-security-fix-release.17159/ or backporting PHP security and bug fixes from 7.1 to EOL 7.0/5.6 branches https://community.centminmod.com/th...ecurity-updates-backported-php-5-6-7-0.17131/ :)

    As to Docker, they did a blog post on why they moved to Docker at How we plan to use Docker in EasyEngine v4 - due to package management.
    Mac, couldn't they just setup virtualization environments locally so use Ubuntu/Debian guest OS servers ?

    I can understand the package management being sometimes difficult from my Centmin Mod development - but that's what scripting is for and well I assume EE would already be doing this for paid clients and themselves anyway ? Majority of what goes into Centmin Mod is basically what I need to use and do use for myself and my paying server optimisation consult clients I work with. Of course more advanced stuff is reserved for paying clients and myself, but the basic framework is in Centmin Mod already so isn't really more work - just the same work already done anyway :) However, yes you need time to test it and probably them having more than one operating system to manage - Ubuntu + Debian will make it harder. Centmin Mod I only have to deal with CentOS. Though on my project dashboard wishlist there is very long term plans for Fedora support. But will see how CentOS 8 / RHEL 8 pans out first. And there's some folks who always asking when will Centmin Mod support Ubuntu/Debian - hence, official FAQ item 12 was created :)

    I'm partially guilty of that, always scanning the web for new technology and advances which I can potentially incorporate into my Centmin Mod LEMP stack. It's why certain technologies mentioned in How To Boost Centmin Mod LEMP Stack Performance came to being, i.e. selective Nginx/PHP-FPM compiler options to support GCC 4/5/6/7/8 and 9 and Clang 3.4/4/5/6/7 etc and PHP 7+ Profile Guided Optimizations for boosting performance, Cloudflare performance zlib library for Nginx gzip compression and Facebook's zstd compression algorithm :D

    It's also why I created Centmin Mod Docker Development subforum back in Feb 2015 so I can investigate and test Docker. My conclusion at the time was Centmin Mod, it's users and me weren't ready for Docker as a full replacement but can be useful to complement existing LEMP stack setups - especially when CentOS's older version packages do not meet some web app/usage scenarios minimum version requirements i.e. nghttp2 HTTP/2 HTTPS library docker image.

    Guess it's a personal choice, though Redis seems more flexible for range of uses these days.

    I assumed it was a fork as it followed similar commands but apparently it isn't a fork just that Webinoly modeled their commands the same as EEv3.

    Indeed it's scary to think how many folks out there are running out of date and potentially insecure LEMP stacks once a LEMP stack's development stops or slows to a crawl. I'm the kind of person who always wants the bleeding edge or latest tech/versions and it's big reason why Centmin Mod came into being as it's developed in a way to allow me to use all the latest tech/versions i.e. if I want to pair latest Intel Coffee Lake or Ice Lake processor with optimal GCC 8/9 compiler when building my Nginx and PHP-FPM binaries for best performance :D And I have 100s of Centmin Mod servers of my own, so always motivated to keep it up to date ASAP. Yeah maybe a bit of OCD in there :)

    Probably came down to real world end user testing and issues. You can do as much private testing as you want, but real test of whether everything works is in the real world with real users and from EE community forums, it's basically that majority of EE end users don't have a clue how Docker works it seems + lack of documentation on EEv4 side. Another reason why Centmin Mod 123.09beta01 isn't stable status yet as centminmod.com site needs a revamp for all 123.09beta01 related documentation and info first as most 123.09beta01 details are on the forum here right now :)

    It's probably same reason I am hesitant to introduce very advanced options and features into Centmin Mod which are enabled by default as they are only as useful as the folks who actually use and understand them = end users. Alot of extra security options aren't enabled by default because of this - I leave them as optionals which end users who know more, can try.
    But yes building, developing and maintaining a LEMP stack is alot harder than most folks realise. Though, personally I wouldn't have it any other way as I like to do things my way and Centmin Mod allows me to do just that when other LEMP/LAMP or web stack alternatives don't even come close to my usage requirements :)
     
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  7. jcat

    jcat Member

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    Just a heads up, OpenVZ7 does now provide support for IPSET in containers :)
     
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  8. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah probably due to newer Linux 3.10 kernel support :) Reminds me I need to start adding code to differentiate OpenVZ6 vs OpenVZ7 VPSes so can auto optimise Centmin Mod initial installations further for stuff like OpenVZ7's IPSET support. Probably easiest differentiation is the Linux kernel version :D

    Code (Text):
    echo "$(uname -r) ($(uname -r | awk -F. '{ printf("%d%03d%03d%03d\n", $1,$2,$3,$4); }'))"
    2.6.32-042stab127.2 (2006032002)
    
    echo "$(uname -r) ($(uname -r | awk -F. '{ printf("%d%03d%03d%03d\n", $1,$2,$3,$4); }'))"
    3.10.0-957.10.1.el7.x86_64 (3010000010)
    
    echo "$(uname -r) ($(uname -r | awk -F. '{ printf("%d%03d%03d%03d\n", $1,$2,$3,$4); }'))"
    5.0.7-1.el7.elrepo.x86_64 (5000007000)
    
     
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