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Email hosting solutions/email servers

Discussion in 'Domains, DNS, Email & SSL Certificates' started by JJC84, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    friendly debates are nice just remember rule #1 of the forums Forum Rules ;)

     
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  2. robert syputa

    robert syputa Member

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    Thanks. However, the point is that this thread is about email servers and your points, such as overhead, do not make sense to me. What overhead are you talking about? V/W does not run anything in the background other than what you select to run.
    The purpose of using V/M is basically the same as using iRedmail or Mail in a box: to simplify setup and administration of a server. I have used iRedmail and it is not as well supported and the premium version that is needed for many functions is now expensive.
    MailinaBox looks like a good choice. If you look at the miab architecture page, it is the same email architecture as V/W: every element is the same including use of NGINX if you choose that option during installation. miab also provides Z-Push and NextCloud and the option of NSD4 for DNS. They both use cron to run routine tasks tasks such as backups and status checks. V/M uses mariadb not sqllite.

    This was offered as an option to consider, not as a one-size fits all solutoin.
     
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  3. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Active Member

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    It's nice.. and a very valid option for someone who wants to do it all (hosting, mail, etc) from one server....
    But the complexity offered is, again in my opinion, overkill for a simple mail server.

    I personally prefer doing my DNS hosting elsewhere, and one of the reasons I didn't like MiB. CloudFlare is my poison of choice for DNS related as their updates to your DNS get pushed out extremely fast. MailCow is more targeted towards those that choose this option as it does not load the DNS related services locally, being dependent on outside providers.
    The one thing I don't like about CloudFlare is you can't make TLSA entries yet. They have promised that in the future.

    There are many options available now compared to rolling your own - which is a PITA to set up honestly.
     
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  4. buik

    buik Well-Known Member

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    Looks like. Absolutely true.
    Problem is simple.

    There is almost no commitment from the Mail in the box developer.
    This person is far too busy.
    Which is of course a personal choice and fine.

    That is a free choice, it only gives the question whether it is smart to use the software.
    I think it its not.

    I would rather look at Mailcow, several developers and almost daily updates.
    The only drawback of Mailcow v.s. Mail in a Box is Docker if you ask me.

     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  5. robert syputa

    robert syputa Member

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    There are many alternative options discussed here.

    MailinaBox looks very good as does use of separately hosted email services such as Amazon simple email service or Zoho. I am using both of these as well as V/W.

    If you have several email users/boxes and do not

    A reason I am using V/W is that I already have the experience of setting it up, including checking of DNS, DKIM, letsencrypt cert, etc.
     
  6. buik

    buik Well-Known Member

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    There are more than enough alternatives. Problem of a free alternative is maintenance.
    Nice alternatives have been shut down due to the lack of maintenance, new functions and patches.

    In my opinion, there are two options, feature wise, security wise.
    Mailcow and Mail in a box.
    Given the reply written above.
    Mailcow, I would advise.
     
  7. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Active Member

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    Ironically... I was with ZoHo and that was the reason I set up my own email server again. Didn't like the limitations that were present with ZoHo (having to use multiple aliases, not being able to set up a dedicated email box for bounced message checking in XenForo and a few other small niglets).
     
  8. robert syputa

    robert syputa Member

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    I don't find that to be at all the case with Virtualmin/Webmin. V/W is not 'leading or bleeding edge'. Neither is mailinabox or iRedmail. their purpose is to grind away as an email server, not serve up web pages that must be done at the fastest possible speed to be competitive.

    I think that what most users want from self-hosted email is that it is reliable and relatively easy to administer. The first choice is NOT to self-host. But if you already know how to do it, then use something you're familiar with or is relatively well supported. If you cannot control/set rules for what is being sent, then do not use a self-hosted server because your users may/will get your site blacklisted, period. I got blacklisted a couple of times by sending out newsletters to registered users that met all CAN-SPAM requirements such as links to remove recipients email addresses. The blacklisting was caused by including some phrases that bots interpreted as spam. It was a industry type newsletter, far from being spam. I contacted the blacklists and submitted a form and the IPs were removed. I use third parties for newsletters most of the time because the costs are reasonable and the success rate is high.

    If you use mailinabox, iRedmail or any other self-hosted email server stack, most of the work is in setting up and managing users and, if you allow mass emailing, managing the site rating/blacklisting. None of these packages can do that work for you. If you use a third party service and you or your clients send out spam, those services may help compared to self-hosting but your site will get blacklisted if you spam or if the emails appear to be spam even if they are innocent stuff like newsletters to your subscribers. It never stops being a hassle completely.
     
  9. robert syputa

    robert syputa Member

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    Just from a personal perspective, I like the freedom of self-hosted email including for newsletters using Wordpress or other newsletter application. Self-hosting allows you to set up however many email boxes you like, do aliasing, etc. However, I use Amazon SES for now for mass emailing because the success rate is (seems to be) higher.

    Part of the reason why email is such a hassle is the abuse from spammers. But commercial sites have taken advantage of that to force use of their services in an autocratic fashion IMO. The email service business is estimated to be worth several billion dollars per year. Go figure.
     
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  10. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well I did my first time ever install of MailCow on a test VPS which I am about to cancel so nothing to loose :) Setup was fairly easy on CentOS 7 once I got CSF Firewall configured for it. Seems best for dedicated MailCow mail server using MailCow to best skip Centmin Mod install and just install CSF Firewall + MailCow. Especially, if you use Cloudflare and need a separate dedicated mail server so your main site origin server's IP is not leaked via mail headers :)

    I could probably fully automate a MailCow install on CentOS 7 if the domain is on Cloudflare and use Cloudflare API to the DNS required records for SPF,DKIM too. Is there an API or way to setup domain/user accounts in MailCow via command line ?? Maybe something for the future for Centmin Mod Premium Users to play with :)

    centos7-mailcow-inbox-01.png
     
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  11. robert syputa

    robert syputa Member

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    Although it is more than needed for an email server, Virtualmin/Webmin does provide easy setup of an email server including DKIM. In addition, it has modules to install, configure and update CSF, Spamassasin, Clamav, greylisting, and other features.
    Because Virtualmin/Webmin are broader server packages that have a large user group and paying customers (for pro version or custom work), the email server is unlikely to be left unsupported.
    The things I did not like about Virtualmin/Webmin/Cloudmin was that it did not support the latest software stacks. For example, using newer versions of Centos beyond the long-term releases was not supported. Ditto latest versions of NGINX, MariaDB, etc. Optimizing performance was almost out of the question because their updates could cause conflicts with the unsupported versions you manually install and configure.
    However, as a stand-alone email server for free that will very likely have future support, Virtualmin/Webmin is not a bad way to go. It will consume extra disk space and use more memory than a straight-stick email server, however, the interface is highly sophisticated and it does have a ton of modules for collaboration, email list services, etc. that could be used. Since most of the VPS now provide larger disk and memory space at low cost, that makes some of the arguments against using the web server plus email server package obsolete.

    V/W makes it easy to remove startup items, cron jobs, so that less memory is used. It can run on less than 1GB of memory. It also makes it easy to set limits on clients email so that spammers won't abuse your service.
     
  12. Sachin G

    Sachin G New Member

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    Hello there,

    The topic seems to be out of the record now but i would like to share my personal experience with you guys.

    I was having over 400 email users and 30+ domains for email service and was looking out something like my own Email Service Application.

    I used to host all users on Cpanel and as you all know cpanel is very bad when you talk about email deliveries.

    I found MIB, MailCow, MailServer, SoGo, Modoboa, iRedmail, SmaterMail, etc... i tested them all practically. Each application i tested with 10 domains and some 30 non important email users at the beginning. I tried to spam my own server using some online tools and honestly speaking all are failed, even doing tweaks to stop spam and phishing stuff these application failed to deliver as end user product.

    These applications has ability to touch the sky if they are well documented and with nice support. The most important parts were missing Support & ability to fight spam, phishing and viruses. Some of them did tried their best to fight, Some application has very good features, some has very nice UI, some has very good UX but at the end the most important part missed out.

    I'm fan of Virtualmin I have been using this application from last 8 years for my client Websites and it worked like a charm. As second thought i wrote all my requirements which a business email service need or missing in the market at the moment and i found them all in virtualmin, if they are not then help topics are easily available if it comes about virtualmin. There own software packages and patches are available even if something is missing. I purchased there cloudmin application by paying some and i'm getting outstanding support for all my needs. That's Great! isn't it.

    My requirement was very simple but this is how i made it. I cannot list all my features but i'm only putting those which big email service brands are offering like Gsuite, Zoho, 365

    I want Some Additional folders to be created while creating user accounts (promotions, social, etc...) and i found this option in virtualmin with a one click.

    I want social website emails should go directly to Social folder for all users - The option is there already to do so

    I was looking out for Split Delivery - The big thing is also included.

    I was looking out Auto hostname email alias when creating new email user (like gsuite has) - it's already there, i don't have to do any settings for that.

    I was looking to have advance level of Spam, Phishing & Virus scan functionality with boosted server speed. - I did it with the help of Virtualmin Support Team by using suggested third party plugins.

    MX Backup - It's in there already just install there additional package and there you go.

    they are too many....

    For Webmail i'm using Rainloop as centralized Webmail Login system for all my clients. Now i'm developing Domain Admin Console and User Webmail by using Simple Virtualmin API, once that done i'll be having perfectly running own business email system.

    After checking gmail user interface like search email, settings pages i don't know why it seems it's accurately matching with usermin, some settings options are exactly same.

    I hope this information will help others to choose the best option for the most important factor of every business.

    Regards
     
  13. buik

    buik Well-Known Member

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    I've seen it before.

    Please, please don't do it.
    400 email users and 30+ domains is way to much for own running services.
    Mail is all about mail reputation nowadays and with 400 users you are more busy with playing referee than just managing the infra.

    For example if another user has managed to get your ip on a blacklist you will be nagged for weeks because users cannot mail with other businesses.

    And all those users come to piss with you. Because you have to solve it. While you can't do that and depend on others (de-blocking ip which can take weeks)

    And even if you users not getting it done you can be blocked by idiot services like Cloudmark. Cloudmark: Blocks e-mail even if it is not spam and your server is not on any dnsbl list / nor the can't prove it anyway (silence is golden).

    Better use Gapps or 365.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  14. Sachin G

    Sachin G New Member

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    Currently i'm having 1K+ Email users from 75+ domains, do you really think i didn't thought about spammer will use my MTA for spamming purpose?. I have taken all necessary steps to run a big mail server. I'm having 25+ SMTP relayhost with all DNS setup. There many things inside i cannot explain them all here.

    My webmail server is different than the Mail server. If registered user send email more than 200/hour the user automatically get locked out from login to mail server. Other sending restrictions are set on main MTA. My data center firewall helped me to prevent all unrestricted access to my MTA and from DDoS attack.

    I have additional server which sync with main virtualmin server to take backup of users data every hour. Having 4 backup MX server which can hold upto 1M mail que and can hold upto 48 hrs.

    I planned DDoS attack on my own server, hired few hackers to hack my servers, used spamming services (these were all my testing part) then after fixing all issues i'm able to make product like this, within all those test my architecture design also got changed slightly.

    Honestly speaking it took me a month to design architecture on paper and then after 6 to 8 months to built infrastructure(cost me $$$$), test all my email server possibilities and then it become a perfect product to act smart in market. It's not about how technology works, it's about how we want them to work.
     
  15. wmtech

    wmtech Active Member

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    We use iRedMail and MailCow without any problems since several years. Almost no spam and certainly no viruses are delivered to our inboxes.

    Regarding SPAM you need to tweak every solution yourself. There is no 100% anti-spam solution out of any box.
     
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  16. rdan

    rdan Well-Known Member

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    I'm using MiB for almost 5 years now on 6 different Server / 30-40 domains, with no issue at all :).
     
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  17. rdan

    rdan Well-Known Member

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  18. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    my reply Why NOT To Use AmazonSES
     
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  19. EckyBrazzz

    EckyBrazzz Active Member

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    Looks very interesting @rdan
    I'm looking for a good manual, but there are so many out there (Google), what works best if you use CMM and want to have control over the users and so.

    After my experience with a script of a member that popped in and out here I liked this manual also a lot

    https://www.ionos.com/community/ema...erver-with-dovecot-and-roundcube-on-centos-7/

    So, any advice would be very welcome!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 5:08 PM
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