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AlmaLinux Elevate In-Place CentOS 7 to EL8 Migrations and Resource Requirements?

Discussion in 'CentOS, Redhat & Oracle Linux News' started by MaximilianKohler, Dec 7, 2023.

  1. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    It sounds like it's already added, and we can try again now?
    I'm using Hetzner and their cheapest $5 plan is 2 CPU, 2 GB RAM:
    I looked up rocky linux min requirements and they said it's 1.5 GB https://forums.rockylinux.org/t/wha...d-hardware-requirements-for-cloud-images/7062, but they link to a general RHEL page, so the specs apply to Alma Linux as well, so I guess there's no difference between Rocky and AlmaL.

    8 GB sounds really extreme. I ran eva's server specs calculator and I'm barely using any resources as is. It's hard to believe that AlmaLinux really demands 4-8x the hardware requirements of CentOS7.

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  2. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Elevate is really only to test migrations, I wouldn't rely on it anytime soon for live production sites - especially for Centmin Mod. The 100% recommended method will always be data migration from a CentOS 7 server to a new EL8+ based server.

    That is requirements for OS itself with nothing else added or installed. Add Centmin Mod LEMP stack and actual nginx, php-fpm, mariadb, csf firewall, memcached, redis server usage to mix and requirements go up.
     
  3. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    1.5 GB is the absolutely bare minimum, local installation only or local lan NFS. And since almost all EL forks are updating not locally but via public HTTP(s) mirrors.

    You are going to run out of memory on 1.5 GB guaranteed. Even as early as updating.

    8 GB of memory use you get with a nice forum right from clean boot. Those quickly go to 16,32,64,128,256 GB etc.

    Should you have sites with 10 or 20 visitors a day I would not even recommend CMM. The emphasis and time will be on creating content and making the site bigger, better known and more popular.

    Shared hosting is then sufficient until you grow enough. After all, no time, you can spend your time better. But that is my opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong.

    I do not host small sites on CMM. It's not cost-effective. Does not take away from the fact that CMM is top software. But for the big projects. The top forums in the world running on it, where every ms counts. For a website with a few visitors it is a nice to have for example the PHP Intel optimalization patch, Cloudflare tls records or hpack patch but nothing more. It will not attract more visitors.

    So why spend hours and hours tweaking when a small site can only grow with unique content?
     
  4. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    That sounds like a good argument in favor of shared hosting. From what I read, shared hosting is more unreliable, less bang for your buck, and has more restrictions. For example, I just moved an email website that was hosted on the cheapest AWS EC2 t2.micro ($14/mo) to my $5 hetzner server (with a CMM XF forum) that now hosts two websites and has plenty of resources still available. I don't know if I would have been able to do that with shared hosting. And two websites running perfectly well for $5/mo, I can't complain.

    I chose CMM because it was recommended in many places and it was the only option I could find a complete setup guide for. I don't spend much time tweaking.

    I just checked some shared hosting prices and they were also $5, but for much worse specs than I'm getting.

    According to my XF cloudflare addon's stats, my forum's daily stats are 850 unique visitors, 4.5k total requests, with spikes of 4k unique and 17k total in the past month.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  5. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    You can also host low volume websites like this on cloudpanel.io. Get the cheapest Hetzner ARM server, as it also runs on ARM and you're good to go. I also definitely don't want to advertise the competitor. And cloudpanel.io is a totally different product, with a different target audience. Again not that I am writing that CMM would not be great. I just don't think CMM is suitable/the best option for low volume sites.

    And for example, a Cloudflare subscription is that even necessary with 850 visitors? Or are you running certain explicit content that is prone to attacks like DDOS etc?
     
  6. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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  7. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    Guide: Installing XenForo CMS on CloudPanel: Step-by-Step Tutorial (linkedin.com)
    Hetzner does als provide basis protection, like DDoS.

    In the event of a major attack on Cloudflare, you will still be deactivated or transferred to a paid package. I don't really understand the popularity of free Cloudflare.

    Additionally when you have a website without explicit content and not large/popular, I don't see what everyone need to do with Cloudflare.

    Explicit content though? Tjah I know examples where... yes even after minute 1 online you are attacked right away.
     
  8. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Moved posts to it's own thread :)

    There are so many factors that go into deciding what type of hosting to use - shared vs vps vs dedicated

    1. Price
    2. Control
    3. Reliability
    4. Performance & Resource Availability
    5. Time & Effort

    Each person would need to rank these factors in order of importance. For me it would be

    1. Control - full root access from VPS or dedicated gives me complete control of how my site's server is setup. That is most important to me so even if the site is a parked domain or with very little traffic, it usually ends up on a VPS server along with other parked domains or low traffic sites bundled together.

    2. Price - has to fit my budget based on my criteria I need for a specific usage case. So if it's a server focused on storing backups, disk space and network bandwidth transfer speed would be a top criteria so pricing for such would differ from if usage case is for static site versus a forum or member based login site or a Wordpress site.

    3. Reliability - one reason I like Linode is their storage layer is very robust and their VPS full cloning, backup and transfer system is faster than a lot of other VPS providers. It's not just uptime that is important, but what happens when you have issues and need backup or move off the server you're on.

    4. Performance, how much you squeeze out of your hosting is directly related to how much control you have. Shared hosting - you're at mercy of web host's configuration of the server so they most likely have some form of resource usage limit set on your shared account to prevent you from using too much of your share of resources. VPS and dedicated hosting, you're in full control of how performant the site and server are which come at a higher price of course. Resource availability is against something you control by your choice of specs that come with your VPS and dedicated server. VPS still have some form of resource limits applied to VPS servers but better than shared hosting. While dedicated, you're fully in control by your choice of hardware specs :)

    5. Time and effort, includes knowledge or lack of knowledge. How much time you want to invest in learning as you move from shared hosting, VPS to dedicated. Higher you go, the more time and effort and knowledge needed. Part of reason Centmin Mod was created https://community.centminmod.com/threads/history-of-centmin-mod-from-2011.22733/, was to save me time managing my VPS and dedicated servers. Can you imagine if you had to implement every step, optimization and configuration Centmin Mod does for you manually and how much time that would take? :D
     
  9. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Depends on the type of attack. I've see Cloudflare Free plan users handle a DDOS attack in 2+ Gbp/s without issue. And even then paid plans start from US$25/month or US$240/yr
    Yeah, a lot of folks look at this incorrectly. Cloudflare is one of those things worth investing time in learning how to use all there free product offerings and mastering how to use them if run any type of web site that is worth anything to yourself.

    So when your web site does grow, you are ready to utilise Cloudflare fully and better equipped to leverage Cloudflare. Cloudflare is no longer just a CDN/WAF, it's product offerings are vast and a lot of folks probably don't realise what Cloudflare's products and services can do for them, until they read up and learn about them :)

    For instance, even Cloudflare free plans allow for Cloudflare For SaaS product, which allows you to extend Cloudflare product coverage to hostname domains that do not use Cloudflare nameservers!
     
  10. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    Ah, thank you. Now I'll keep replying :)

    I should link to this thread in the other one, no?

    This is not complete. For reference/example, here is where I got stuck previously https://www.theadminzone.com/thread...oftware-server-etc.154985/page-2#post-1181689. Perhaps I could find some other guides, but I'd have to spend more time researching and learning how to do things differently with Cyberpanel & OpenLiteSpeed.

    What is the basis of your claim that Cyberpanel is less resource-intensive than CMM?

    Oh yeah, that reminds me that one of the reasons I switched to Cloudflare was for their free email service. Because forwardemail.net doesn't allow .info anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  11. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    I don't think I understand you. Where do I mention Cyberpanel at all?
     
  12. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    The point is when does the site become worth it, and that's a tricky one. Nowadays, with a new project, as fresh fish, with no network or connections. It is very difficult to get unique content noticed within the algorithm. In order to get visitors. In fact I think even on certain hugely popular topics the boat has already sailed. Unless you have something really Unique's. A few still manage to do that.

    CMM seems easy, Cloudflare ditto. But that is difficult for us to judge. Should it be your job managing multiple high volume costumers and/or you have secretly put in 1000's of hours all these years. Then you are secretly already master of the product and very very good.

    The question is whether an entrant, given the difficult market and limited time (a new project cannot possibly be equal livelihood unless previous successes or wealthy parents). So you're stuck with your day to day work.

    Should you spend this limited time after working hours on "mastering" Cloudflare and CMM or creating unique content, and mastering content creating.

    Then the main question should then be: I become a content creator or will I manage several large sites?

    And then we come to the part discussed earlier. Should you have or manage high volume site(s) then the choice is pretty simple CMM + Cloudflare. But for one or a few low volume site(s). I would put my priority on mastering content creation.

    Should it 'still' go very well after some time. Then there are usually more than enough resources to hire an outside pro. So that you become even better and bigger in the content area.
     
  13. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    Oh, my mistake. I equated Cloudpanel with Cyberpanel, since they were both recommended to me previously, and my understanding is that they are both similar & interchangeable UI versions of CMM.

    So you're not saying that Cloudpanel/Cyberpanel have lower hardware requirements from CMM, but rather that you think they take less time to use? In my case, that would be an argument to stick with CMM instead of spending time learning something new.

    My primary concern is your statement that you wouldn't use CMM with anything less than an 8 GB memory server. If there is a CMM alternative that would allow me to keep my $5/mo Hetzner server then I'd consider switching to it.
     
  14. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    In my view, Cloudpanel is kind of self-hosted shared hosting light, with your/their own accounts on your own server for low volume sites. CMM runs as single user: root without GUI and is usually for heavy websites and/or or lots of visitors, data etc. So not the same thing.

    Cloudpanel does have lower recs:
    as CMM is 4 GB.
    And yes Cloudpanel is much easier than CMM. Cyberpanel I do not know. Therefore, I don't understand why you are bringing it up again.

    That's right. Since the minimum of CMM requires 4 GB. I don't even start below 8GB. You shouldn't want a system with minimum specs. But that's my opinion. Advice is/was to not use that 5$ server anyway. Since for what I read Hetzner 5$ servers are on 2GB and even the minimum EL is on 3GB and CMM 4GB as written above.

    But I wouldn't worry. It's just advice and what I would do. You are of course free to do what you want. After all, you can follow an advice or disregard it.
     
  15. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    Where are you getting that from? I don't see any minimum requirements at https://centminmod.com/ or the FAQ https://centminmod.com/faq.html. All I know about is Eva's comment https://community.centminmod.com/th...-from-el7-to-el8-how-we-did.24264/#post-98108 that said 2 GB min, 4 GB recommended.

    I looked up a comparison of CloudPanel and CyberPanel and Cyberpanel seems to have lower requirements (1 GB) and more features. But I'm also seeing criticisms of bugs and security issues.
     
  16. buik

    buik “The best traveler is one without a camera.”

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    My advice ends here. Every answer whatever is given to your own questions you question again and again. Good luck and have a nice day.

    Red Hat's official product sets a minimum of 3GB of memory. CentOS, AmaLinux and Rocky Linux on where CMM is based on, without (L)EMP is a clone and applies the same. The links to the sources are frequent in this topic.

    As CMM is still a beta on EL8 it has not been shown on the website: https://centminmod.com/ As indicated, this will not happen until about January 31, 2024.
     
  17. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    Centmin Mod EL8+ system minimum and recommended requirements are outlined at https://community.centminmod.com/th...-mod-on-almalinux-8-rocky-linux-8-oses.23261/

     
  18. MaximilianKohler

    MaximilianKohler Member

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    Thanks! Since it's the same 2 GB as CloudPanel, and the $5 hetzner server meets those specs, I don't see any reason to switch from CMM.

    It would be useful to have the minimum specs listed somewhere at https://centminmod.com/ or https://centminmod.com/faq.html.

    I never saw swap disk size mentioned anywhere with hetzner, but when I open putty with CentOS 7 I see
    Code:
    ==============================================
                  total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
    Mem:           1789         636         332         272         820         653
    Swap:          1023          80         943
    ==============================================
    
    And I see 1024M when I run "swapon --show" or "cat /proc/swaps"
    Code:
    NAME      TYPE  SIZE  USED PRIO
    /swapfile file 1024M 79.8M   -2
    
    So it looks like I'll have to manually increase the swap file size for Almalinux: remove current swap file, then create new larger one.

    EDIT: Looks like Hetzner is also rolling out new ARM processors that start at $5 for 2 CPU and 4 GB RAM, so maybe by the time we have to upgrade to Almalinux they'll be available in the US. And from what I remember, using Cloudflare means that server location is less important anyway. So using an EU server should be fine, and it would be easy to switch to the US by using a snapshot later on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2023
  19. atomi

    atomi New Member

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    I think that the installer to creates 4GB swap even in EL7 boxes without any swap when you start installing CMM.
    Its way too much for basic LEMP usage without any anti-malware/virus scanning softwares or php composer, I even have one small box running CMM and purpose is mainly nginx reverse proxy so it would prolly run smoothly without any swap but I like to use it with CMM because of optimized nginx.
    Nowdays I usually start creating swapfile manually before I start installing CMM. It would be nice if users could someday define swapfile size in custom_config
     
  20. eva2000

    eva2000 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's a good idea :)

    Though there's only 5 more months till CentOS 7 is EOL so you'd need the higher swap requirements for EL8+